Last night I flew an Angel Flight mission to Buffalo, NY from Northeast
Philadelphia.

When I arrived at the only FBO in Buffalo (Prior Aviation), I was initially
told by the woman behind the counter that under NO circumstances are the
landing fees waived, Angel Flight or not. After politely asking her to
reconsider, she did wave the fees but admitted that she was going against
policy and for me not to expect it again. She then told me that the land
on which the Buffalo airport resides is owned by "the Transportation
Authority" or "Port Authority" and it is they who are responsible for the
fees.

This policy and the attitude of the FBO irked me. So far, everywhere I
have landed, including Boston's Logan airport and Baltimore Washington,
have happily waived landing fees up to $100 (US) *and* some even offered
fuel discounts for Angel Flights.

Have others encountered a no-wave policy?

I would hope that these FBOs are rare and that with a little pressure from
Angel Flight's main organization, FBOs such as Prior could be convinced to
forgo landing fee profits for charitable flights such as these.

--
Peter

"Peter R." > wrote in message
ds.com...
> Last night I flew an Angel Flight mission to Buffalo, NY from Northeast
> Philadelphia.
>
> When I arrived at the only FBO in Buffalo (Prior Aviation), I was
initially
> told by the woman behind the counter that under NO circumstances are the
> landing fees waived, Angel Flight or not. After politely asking her to
> reconsider, she did wave the fees but admitted that she was going against
> policy and for me not to expect it again. She then told me that the land
> on which the Buffalo airport resides is owned by "the Transportation
> Authority" or "Port Authority" and it is they who are responsible for the
> fees.
>
> This policy and the attitude of the FBO irked me. So far, everywhere I
> have landed, including Boston's Logan airport and Baltimore Washington,
> have happily waived landing fees up to $100 (US) *and* some even offered
> fuel discounts for Angel Flights.
>
> Have others encountered a no-wave policy?
>
> I would hope that these FBOs are rare and that with a little pressure from
> Angel Flight's main organization, FBOs such as Prior could be convinced to
> forgo landing fee profits for charitable flights such as these.

AFNE's orientation material states that "many, but not all" FBOs waive
landing fees, so I always ask the FBO in advance. I've yet to find one that
doesn't waive, but I haven't flown many NGF missions so far.

--Gary

> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I personally think that it is rude and arrogant to EXPECT or DEMAND a
discount or special treatment. To persist when politly told no risks
painting all of us in a bad light. I have done volunteer work for over
10 years in various regards, and I consider my payment to be the job
well done. If something is offered, accept it. If not, it might be
reasonable to ask once.. But dont persist, and dont get ****ed when you
dont get your way.

Any expenses incurred in the course of providing Angel Flights, such as
fuel, fees and aircraft costs are deductible BY YOU. I always pay ramp
fees wherever I go, and if they are waivable with fuel purchase then I
purchase fuel. Not many service stations for cars would stay in business
if everyone came in, used their restrooms, wiped their windows and then
left again without buying gas. Its how these places stay in business.

Encouraging the organization to apply "muscle" in the name of charity
would be counterproductive. Thats like little Ricky Rescue with the
volunteer fire department asking for a discount at a restaurant whenever
he comes in wearing his fire department t-shirt, and asking the chief to
stand up for him when he is politely told no. No quicker way to tarnish
an image that to demand something that normally is viewed as charity.

I would encourage you to reconsider your point of view on this matter.

Dave, PPSEL

Peter R. wrote:

> Last night I flew an Angel Flight mission to Buffalo, NY from Northeast
> Philadelphia.
>
> When I arrived at the only FBO in Buffalo (Prior Aviation), I was initially
> told by the woman behind the counter that under NO circumstances are the
> landing fees waived, Angel Flight or not. After politely asking her to
> reconsider, she did wave the fees but admitted that she was going against
> policy and for me not to expect it again. She then told me that the land
> on which the Buffalo airport resides is owned by "the Transportation
> Authority" or "Port Authority" and it is they who are responsible for the
> fees.
>
> This policy and the attitude of the FBO irked me. So far, everywhere I
> have landed, including Boston's Logan airport and Baltimore Washington,
> have happily waived landing fees up to $100 (US) *and* some even offered
> fuel discounts for Angel Flights.
>
> Have others encountered a no-wave policy?
>
> I would hope that these FBOs are rare and that with a little pressure from
> Angel Flight's main organization, FBOs such as Prior could be convinced to
> forgo landing fee profits for charitable flights such as these.
>
>

I've been doing AF's throughout the Northeast for 3 years and
have never paid a landing fee. Doesn't seem unreasonable that
the FBO should waive the fee. It's not like half the flights into
the airport each day are AF's.

"Peter R." > wrote in message
ds.com...
> Last night I flew an Angel Flight mission to Buffalo, NY from Northeast
> Philadelphia.
>
> When I arrived at the only FBO in Buffalo (Prior Aviation), I was
initially
> told by the woman behind the counter that under NO circumstances are the
> landing fees waived, Angel Flight or not. After politely asking her to
> reconsider, she did wave the fees but admitted that she was going against
> policy and for me not to expect it again. She then told me that the land
> on which the Buffalo airport resides is owned by "the Transportation
> Authority" or "Port Authority" and it is they who are responsible for the
> fees.
>
> This policy and the attitude of the FBO irked me. So far, everywhere I
> have landed, including Boston's Logan airport and Baltimore Washington,
> have happily waived landing fees up to $100 (US) *and* some even offered
> fuel discounts for Angel Flights.
>
> Have others encountered a no-wave policy?
>
> I would hope that these FBOs are rare and that with a little pressure from
> Angel Flight's main organization, FBOs such as Prior could be convinced to
> forgo landing fee profits for charitable flights such as these.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dave S wrote:

> I personally think that it is rude and arrogant to EXPECT or DEMAND a
> discount or special treatment.

First of all, you have that backwards. I was told in a less-than-polite
manner that there was no fee waived, and I POLITELY asked the line desk
to reconsider. But then again, considering this medium I am not
faulting you for misinterpreting the text as posted.

> To persist when politly told no risks painting all of us in a bad light.

There was no PERSISTING. You must think pretty highly of yourself to
feel qualified to speak for the entire charitable population by stating
that I risk "painting all of us in a bad light." Unless you were
standing next to me last night and witnessed the interaction, you hardly
qualify to speak for anyone other than yourself. IMO, of course.

> I have done volunteer work for over
> 10 years in various regards, and I consider my payment to be the job
> well done.

Sorry, buy I do not consider the waving of ramp fees to be a form of
payment to me. It is merely a bit less cold cash, AKA expense, that
must come out of my wallet. That's all. There is no harm in
attempting to reduce expenses when able.

> If something is offered, accept it.

Like your misguided advice? Nah, I politely decline your generous gift.

> If not, it might be reasonable to ask once..

Thank you for agreeing with me. This is exactly what I did.

> But dont persist,

Again, this did not happen.

> and dont get ****ed when you dont get your way.

Who's ****ed? Slightly perturbed, maybe. But not ****ed.

It seems to me that a network like Angel Flight takes more than just
one charitable act for it to be truly successful. It requires the
contributions of many players, including an FBO.

> Any expenses incurred in the course of providing Angel Flights, such as
> fuel, fees and aircraft costs are deductible BY YOU. I always pay ramp
> fees wherever I go, and if they are waivable with fuel purchase then I
> purchase fuel.

Irrelevant testimonial, unless you are referring to your experiences
flying for AF. My interpretation of your words above is that you do
not.

> Not many service stations for cars would stay in business
> if everyone came in, used their restrooms, wiped their windows and then
> left again without buying gas. Its how these places stay in business.

Irrelevant analogy. See above.

> Encouraging the organization to apply "muscle" in the name of charity
> would be counterproductive.

Muscle? Hardly. These organizations routinely contact places of
business and ask for favors, donations, and the like. With your lengthy
charitable tenure, I would have expected you to know this.

This is what I was suggesting.

> Thats like little Ricky Rescue with the
> volunteer fire department asking for a discount at a restaurant whenever
> he comes in wearing his fire department t-shirt, and asking the chief to
> stand up for him when he is politely told no.

Another irrelevant analogy. I have to admit that they are funny to
read, though.

> No quicker way to tarnish an image that to demand something that normally
> is viewed as charity.

HUH? What are you trying to communicate here? "...demand something
that normally is viewed as charity?" You lost me. Had you instead
used a Ricky Rescue or Service Station analogy, I might have understood
better.

Anyway, you do not need to lose any sleep at night thinking I might take
down the entire reputation of an organization like AF. I guarantee you
that the manner in which I conduct myself during each of these flights
upholds their already excellent reputation.

> I would encourage you to reconsider your point of view on this matter.

PoV reconsidered... and maintained.

--
Peter

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:02:26 -0400, Peter R. >
wrote:

>Have others encountered a no-wave policy?

It seems to me that the FBO in Buffalo may have been reluctant many years
ago. However, it seems odd that you had to actually ask the FBO. In my
flights for Angel Flight of NE, they've always fax'd my arrival to the FBO
ahead of time, which includes the fee waiver request.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Peter R. > wrote in
ds.com:

> Last night I flew an Angel Flight mission to Buffalo, NY from
> Northeast Philadelphia.

Apparently it's just the class of people that run Buffalo Airport. If you
fly Angel Flights into San Francisco International, for example; landing
and parking fees are waived and you get a discount on fuel. At one Bay
Area Airport (Oakland International), Angel Flights get first class
treatment at KaiserAir.

Just check ahead of time with the FBOs before going to a destination for
the first time. Oft times you can find a more charitable-friendly airport
nearby. Be sure to keep your Angel Flight Office informed so they can
spread the word and do a better of dispatching.

--
John Godwin
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT from email address)

Peter R. wrote:

> When I arrived at the only FBO in Buffalo (Prior Aviation), I was initially
> told by the woman behind the counter that under NO circumstances are the
> landing fees waived, Angel Flight or not. After politely asking her to
> reconsider, she did wave the fees but admitted that she was going against
> policy and for me not to expect it again. She then told me that the land
> on which the Buffalo airport resides is owned by "the Transportation
> Authority" or "Port Authority" and it is they who are responsible for the
> fees.

Well, it might be worth a letter to Prior Aviation asking if this
is, indeed, their policy and not simply an unaware or uninformed
employee. If it is the policy of another group (Port Authority)
ask for a contact there.

If you wish to follow up, that is.

I have found more than once that FBO employees are not aware
of or misinterpret policy.

Cheers,
Sydney

You don't ever get a little testy when people tell you things you don't want to
hear... do ya Peter?


> There was no PERSISTING. You must think pretty highly of yourself to
> feel qualified to speak for the entire charitable population by stating
> that I risk "painting all of us in a bad light." Unless you were
> standing next to me last night and witnessed the interaction, you hardly
> qualify to speak for anyone other than yourself. IMO, of course.
>
> Like your misguided advice? Nah, I politely decline your generous gift.
>
> Thank you for agreeing with me. This is exactly what I did.
>
> Irrelevant testimonial, unless you are referring to your experiences
> flying for AF. My interpretation of your words above is that you do
> not.
>
> Irrelevant analogy. See above.
>
> Muscle? Hardly. These organizations routinely contact places of
> business and ask for favors, donations, and the like. With your lengthy
> charitable tenure, I would have expected you to know this.
>
> Another irrelevant analogy. I have to admit that they are funny to
> read, though.
>
> HUH? What are you trying to communicate here? "...demand something
> that normally is viewed as charity?" You lost me. Had you instead
> used a Ricky Rescue or Service Station analogy, I might have understood
> better.
>
> Anyway, you do not need to lose any sleep at night thinking I might take
> down the entire reputation of an organization like AF. I guarantee you
> that the manner in which I conduct myself during each of these flights
> upholds their already excellent reputation.
>
> PoV reconsidered... and maintained.
>
> --
> Peter

Where on earth did this come from? The poster never said anything
about being '****ed' or 'demanding' anything. They told him 'no', he
asked again (once), explaining his position, and they reconsidered. I
call that 'assertiveness'. We are not talking about asking the FBO to
give free fuel or even a significant discount on it, but to waive a
landing fee. And we are not asking for it all the time, but under
certain, limited circumstances. Given what these places charge for
100LL, asking for them to waive a landing fee (for which *nothing* was
done in the first place) seems very reasonable. And even though most
of the 'landing fees' are usually passed on to the airport authority,
almost always the FBO has the authority to waive it.

What he did was certainly not rude or arrogant.

I would encourage you to reconsider your point of view on this matter.

Cheers,

Cap



Dave S > wrote in message >...
> I personally think that it is rude and arrogant to EXPECT or DEMAND a
> discount or special treatment. To persist when politly told no risks
> painting all of us in a bad light. I have done volunteer work for over
> 10 years in various regards, and I consider my payment to be the job
> well done. If something is offered, accept it. If not, it might be
> reasonable to ask once.. But dont persist, and dont get ****ed when you
> dont get your way.
>
> Any expenses incurred in the course of providing Angel Flights, such as
> fuel, fees and aircraft costs are deductible BY YOU. I always pay ramp
> fees wherever I go, and if they are waivable with fuel purchase then I
> purchase fuel. Not many service stations for cars would stay in business
> if everyone came in, used their restrooms, wiped their windows and then
> left again without buying gas. Its how these places stay in business.
>
> Encouraging the organization to apply "muscle" in the name of charity
> would be counterproductive. Thats like little Ricky Rescue with the
> volunteer fire department asking for a discount at a restaurant whenever
> he comes in wearing his fire department t-shirt, and asking the chief to
> stand up for him when he is politely told no. No quicker way to tarnish
> an image that to demand something that normally is viewed as charity.
>
> I would encourage you to reconsider your point of view on this matter.
>
> Dave, PPSEL
>
> Peter R. wrote:
>
> > Last night I flew an Angel Flight mission to Buffalo, NY from Northeast
> > Philadelphia.
> >
> > When I arrived at the only FBO in Buffalo (Prior Aviation), I was initially
> > told by the woman behind the counter that under NO circumstances are the
> > landing fees waived, Angel Flight or not. After politely asking her to
> > reconsider, she did wave the fees but admitted that she was going against
> > policy and for me not to expect it again. She then told me that the land
> > on which the Buffalo airport resides is owned by "the Transportation
> > Authority" or "Port Authority" and it is they who are responsible for the
> > fees.
> >
> > This policy and the attitude of the FBO irked me. So far, everywhere I
> > have landed, including Boston's Logan airport and Baltimore Washington,
> > have happily waived landing fees up to $100 (US) *and* some even offered
> > fuel discounts for Angel Flights.
> >
> > Have others encountered a no-wave policy?
> >
> > I would hope that these FBOs are rare and that with a little pressure from
> > Angel Flight's main organization, FBOs such as Prior could be convinced to
> > forgo landing fee profits for charitable flights such as these.
> >
> >

Peter R. > wrote in
ds.com:

> This policy and the attitude of the FBO irked me. So far, everywhere
> I have landed, including Boston's Logan airport and Baltimore
> Washington, have happily waived landing fees
> Have others encountered a no-wave policy?

Just once -- Branson MO (but they are most definitely in it for the money
anyway). <G>

Note that there is a big difference between "landing fees" and "ramp
fees" - even though you often pay for them together. The ramp fee (of
which Signature is so fond of, but will waive with advance notice for Angel
Flight) is something THEY collect for you placing your shadow on THEIR
tarmac, and THEY keep in THEIR coffers.

A true landing fee, which is in itself much less common, is charged by the
airport authority. It may be collected by the FBO, but it is not theirs to
keep. As a result, some counter jockey may indeed have no authority to
waive it, regardless of desire.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

There's no question you're right. Even the all-most-powerful Port Authority
of NY/NJ waives fees. I won't use PNE cos they refuse to waive the landing
fee. Not the FBO, the airport. I think it's wrong in principle.
Principle. If others feel it's fine, then pay it. I don't think it's
right. For what we do, everyone wants to contribute. PNE and others should
also contribute.

That's my opinion and that's how I work it.

If an airport charges me a landing fee on a charitable flight, I won't land
there.

Ray


"Peter R." > wrote in message
ds.com...
> Last night I flew an Angel Flight mission to Buffalo, NY from Northeast
> Philadelphia.
>
> When I arrived at the only FBO in Buffalo (Prior Aviation), I was
initially
> told by the woman behind the counter that under NO circumstances are the
> landing fees waived, Angel Flight or not. After politely asking her to
> reconsider, she did wave the fees but admitted that she was going against
> policy and for me not to expect it again. She then told me that the land
> on which the Buffalo airport resides is owned by "the Transportation
> Authority" or "Port Authority" and it is they who are responsible for the
> fees.
>
> This policy and the attitude of the FBO irked me. So far, everywhere I
> have landed, including Boston's Logan airport and Baltimore Washington,
> have happily waived landing fees up to $100 (US) *and* some even offered
> fuel discounts for Angel Flights.
>
> Have others encountered a no-wave policy?
>
> I would hope that these FBOs are rare and that with a little pressure from
> Angel Flight's main organization, FBOs such as Prior could be convinced to
> forgo landing fee profits for charitable flights such as these.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>